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Moe Carrick 0:02
In a world where workplaces are toxic for people, and humanity has been squeezed out by outdated rules, how do leaders who care create enlivened workplace cultures?
Moe Carrick 0:13
This show has the answers. On Let’s Make Work Human we discuss how companies can meet their mission and make a profit without squeezing the life out of people.
Moe Carrick 0:23
The path to how lies in unbreakable connections, clear purpose and real partnerships that debunk and demolish old mindsets about the world of work.
Moe Carrick 0:33
I’m Moe Carrick, and I’m a beekeeper mother of adults, CEO, culture expert, award winning entrepreneur and best selling author. And I’m joined on this show by my colleague and friend, awesome coach, mother of a toddler award winning creative DEI facilitator and Millennial Mei Ratz.
Moe Carrick 0:52
Together we tackle topics like teams that gossip, leaders who are bad for people, parenting while working, belonging, and so much more, with an irreverent and honest look at what it takes to make every workplace fit for the human beings who work there. We are on a mission to stop the suck and restore humanity to work. This show will warm your heart challenge your thinking and leave you laughing out loud.
Moe Carrick 1:16
All right, so should we jump in to the very fun part? Okay. So what we want to do next is we’re gonna, we’re now going to bring forward two people that are super, super important to us. And the first one is Ann Lent, who is on the screen right now. Ann is one of my best and oldest friends not that you’re that old because we were really quite young at heart. And I can’t believe that you’re joining us for the podcast. I’m so excited to have you here. And we challenged our besties to come ready to ask us a question today. And I don’t know about you, Mei, but I’ve been like freakishly nervous all day about what she’s going to ask. So do you want to introduce Oakley?
Mei Ratz 1:23
Oh, yeah, my best friend who’s on the screen, y’all. She’s got a blue shirt on and her button. Her name is Oakley Boycott. That’s her real name. That’s like her parents given name. Amazing. And I don’t even know there’ll be a whole podcast about it. But if someone’s going to ask the most dearest and deepest, most courageous question, it’s probably gonna be Oakley. So it was a big risk to invite Oakley to this podcast. But here she is. She’s also performs at the Met among many other places. She’s, she’s an artist and performer in New York, many places, wherever Paris wherever you want her to perform, she’ll be there. She’s just about to launch a really huge project on her birthday. That which is a performance piece. And you’ll have to follow up with Oakly to figure out what that is. The other performance piece, but not really performance, but more like service project that she’s about to do is that she’s running for our local city council. Ward 1. Yeah. So if you’re in Lander, Wyoming, and you can vote in Ward 1, Oakly is your person. If you want to talk more about it, you can get in my DMs and I’ll tell you all about it. But Oakley, she’s amazing. So she’s got a question for us. It might not be work related, but bring it on.
Moe Carrick 3:15
Okay, Oakly you go first. Because then I got more to say more about Ann. But I want to hear your question of us. It’s so good to see you Oakley.
Oakly Boycott 3:21
Well, good to see you. Thank you guys so much for having me on. This is like, you know, I’m a fangirl of both of you. And I get I get real jazzed that I also get to be your friend, friend and fan girl. Um, so my question for both of you is: I think it’s, it can be and should be considered a work related question, but also is a big question. What are or what is what are the darkest parts of your respective communities that you still have to show up and lead for?
Mei Ratz 3:56
I told you, I’m sorry.
Moe Carrick 3:58
Can we just cancel that right now? It was canceled as fuck.
Mei Ratz 4:04
Moe Carrick 4:05
Well, it’s interesting, because it’s a really good question Oakley. And I think there’s like, for me, the first thing that came up is like, how to identify community because when I first one is like the community I live in. But then I started thinking about the focus of this podcast, which is Let’s Make Work Human. And I thought about the medium in which we work the most in which I work the most is the workplace of the world of workplace. And I think that one of the deepest, darkest parts of the world of workplace consulting and coaching, which is where I’m from, of course, you know, that’s like the work that I do organizational development coat and executive coaching, is that there is there is persistent sexism and racism and ableism in the field of consulting and coaching, that has everything to do with the stories we tell ourselves about what good organizations are and what they aren’t.
Moe Carrick 4:59
And it shows up in lack of equity for fees. It shows up in mythology about how we’re supposed to do things and what’s actually good practice and what isn’t the stories we tell ourselves about profit. And it hurts the clients who buy the services of people that are perpetuating those -isms. So for me, that’s one of the real dark sides of, of the community that I’m in is the persistent sexism, racism, ableism, and also heteronormatism, that lives in this space. I would say, in a nutshell.
Mei Ratz 5:35
Oakly Boycott 5:38
Yeah,I’m glad. I also want to say that I’m really glad that you, because that was what you covered at the beginning of your answer was also why I asked it. I wanted to see how each of you differentiated between the work community and community community or whatever your choices were, because like, my first question was going to be like, how do you actually define community? Because I think that that’s a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot. And especially as like a marketing tool, and I’m totally guilty of that as well. So I’m I don’t I just want to throw out that I’m really grateful that you chose to answer how you did in that differentiation. And Mei, I would love to hear your answer.
Mei Ratz 6:16
Okay, well, here’s the truth. Here’s the truth, because I don’t have time to make up anything else except for what’s true. So here we go. I see my work in terms of where I am in my life right now, as a relay. And I’ve talked about this, I’m sure on other episodes, maybe, or to many of you. But there’s a Julio Castro speech that talks about immigration as a relay.
Mei Ratz 6:41
And I, that metaphor has hit me really, really strongly in terms of like, what my job is, as the this generation of my life. And my grandmother’s living and making change in the world is actually a relay, it’s not a sprint, you might not actually see the end of the race.
Mei Ratz 7:00
And my grandmother’s job, her leg of the relay was very different than my mom’s who’s on the screen right now, that my mom’s leg and it’s my mom’s leg is very different than my leg. And then I will pass the baton to my daughter Crosley. And her leg will be different than mine.
Mei Ratz 7:17
And I see mine my job as to sprint as quickly and as fast as I can towards the change that I can make and the difference I can make. And I think the darkness inside of the community of like these changemakers, or these change agents, or even these new mothers that I’m sitting in, in this side, or in this age of my life right now, is that we can get caught up in this very dark swirl of protecting our own. And that it’s just about us. That our leg is just about our children. It’s just about our circle, it’s just about our family. It’s just about our people. And I feel that community and that darkness inside of myself, when I get really scared at three in the morning about what am I going to do? How much change can I actually possibly make? The way that I can unspiral myself out of that is by thinking larger than that, like there are no there. It doesn’t exist, that there’s someone else’s children. It doesn’t exist that here’s someone else’s mother, right? Like we’re all in it together. But I think it can get very dark really quickly when we’re all just fighting for ourselves just alone.
Oakly Boycott 8:23
Like I and I know that we’ve talked about this a good amount that like we build now for a future that we’re never gonna see. Yeah. That’s why I know that you teach me both of you teach me that. That’s why I show like slate. That’s why I choose to show up in the way that I do because of what I learned from both of you. And so
Mei Ratz 8:41
Thanks Oakly, what a great question.
Moe Carrick 8:44
Alright, this is over now we just have… We made everybody cry in the first four minutes of the podcast. But no, I love what you said, Mei, I really do. And it did touch me as well. Because I don’t think it’s as easy to make change for that long of a window. You know. So I am touched by what you said. And it’s really powerful. And I’m also touched because I want to hear Ann’s question and I was thinking about, like, what it means to me to have Ann Lent here. And how the only way we can make change for the long term is when we have a community that’s behind us.
Mei Ratz 9:24
Moe Carrick 9:26
You know, and by behind us that like that community is not the community you’re asking about that I responded about? You know, Oakley, it’s for me. It’s a very private community. It’s like only a few people I always say I don’t need very many friends. I just need some good ones. And one of them is Ann Lent and has been with me in dark times and in good and she’s the best medical practitioner I’ve ever met. She’s a nurse practitioner. She’s delivered hundreds if not 1000s of babies, and has helped me with pretty much every medical issue my family has ever faced, but is blissfully retired right now. And, we’ve been through thick and thin. So Annie, it’s so good to have you here. And and so what’s your question?
Ann Lent 10:14
Well, I, I didn’t know I was going to be like crying during this posdcast.
Moe Carrick 10:20
This is what happens when we invite our friends!
Ann Lent 10:27
The first question was so intelligently and thoughtfully placed that now this is going to sound, in comparison… But I’m actually asking for a friend, which is a colleague of mine who’s still practicing, and she’s in a tough spot. And so how does a worker navigate a move professionally, which is considered self care to the worker, but perceived by management to be selfish? And it’s in a helping profession deep in helping work till you drop with a smile on your face culture.
Moe Carrick 11:04
Yeah. Oh, you want to take that one first, Mei?
Mei Ratz 11:09
No, absolutely not.
Moe Carrick 11:11
You must have some ideas?
Mei Ratz 11:16
Oh, yeah, I have ideas love me. Yeah. I mean, mine would be that I have this friend named Moe Carrick who often says, the system doesn’t care about you, you are a piece of the system, you help this system move this system is growing. But the system doesn’t care about you, ultimately. It has a different goal. I don’t know. I like I feel like my advice meters going way down on this. But that’s it.Wwhen I try to think about this system compared to my own self. I’m like, which one of us cares about us? And if neither of us care about us, we are in a sticky spot?
Moe Carrick 11:49
I think that’s a great answer, actually. And you know, because we do see systems as living things, but they don’t really have the need for connection in the same way that human beings do.
Moe Carrick 11:59
So I’m not even sure the system necessarily doesn’t care, it’s more neutral than that. The system has to stay alive, which usually means it has to either make money or deliver on mission in order to save itself. And it’s actually the leaders job in systems to make sure that that happens.
Moe Carrick 12:16
So what your question brings up for me, though, Ann is so powerful, I’m hearing this so much right now, in our post COVID time, especially in the sector that you and your friend represent, which is health care. I’ve had three phone calls today about this very question. Because, folks, there’s not going to be anybody left to take care of us pretty soon, like the world of work in terms of medicine, and what’s happening– it is broken right now. It is so broken before COVID. But it’s even more broken now. And the the devastating effect that your question reminds me of is that the brokenness is landing on the backs of the human beings who are trying to take good care of people. This, this is what’s happening, and they are the providers. And I’m seeing it everywhere. We are all seeing it everywhere with the people that treat us and with our clients, who are just saying like, I can’t take it anymore, I have to retire, I have to quit, I have to go become a plumber, because I cannot continue to give in this system and to heal people and to help people with what and then myself.
Moe Carrick 13:22
So like the first word that came to my mind when you ask that question is for your friend. If we are not well, we cannot do our jobs. Full stop.
Moe Carrick 13:34
If we are not well, we cannot do our jobs.
Moe Carrick 13:36
And I mean, well in the broadest sense. Well, physically, well, emotionally, spiritually, if we’re suffering from an addiction, if we have a stress related illness, if we can’t sleep, if we have a broken leg, like whatever it is, if we are impaired, we cannot do the quality work we have to do and we are obligated to take care of ourselves first.
Moe Carrick 13:57
So to your friend, I would say be brave, draw boundaries, take care of you. Because you know, that’s how you’re going to deliver the work that matters to you. And let the system take care of itself.
Mei Ratz 14:09
Because it will.
Moe Carrick 14:11
Because it will.
Ann Lent 14:13
Thank you, Mei. That’s very helpful. Thank you.
Mei Ratz 14:16
I’m just here for the raging. That’s like my job. Moe’s job is actually the advice, but I my like millennial brain is lighting up because it just doesn’t seem fair. It seems unfair to even make people go to the place where they say I can’t do this anymore. That’s pretty far. That’s unfair. And if my call out to community would just be like, we are bringing people to the brink of saying that they cannot do this anymore. I think they’ve chosen that says that they will do no harm. Like, oh, we gotta we gotta really rally about that. I know a lot of people are saying this, but I’m saying it now. Like, come on. That’s not fair.
Moe Carrick 14:56
And Mei I would say like, I would add another nuance to it.
Moe Carrick 15:00
Because I don’t think it has anything to do actually with fairness. Like, I don’t, I don’t think it’s fair. I think it’s I don’t think it’s not fair.
Moe Carrick 15:08
I think it is what it is because the systems are broken, you know, and it’s not the CEO of a healthcare systems fault that a physician or nurse or a CNA who works for them, has to draw a boundary in order to claim back their life and be well. Like, I can’t look at that seat as CEO and wag my finger around fairness, because I have to look at what they’re up against, which is an entire system that is broken.
Moe Carrick 15:37
And I actually and you, we are part of that system, which is, what are we lobbying for? around health care policy? And protocol? What are we voting for? In terms of how we support people that are on public health services? What you know, the the whole, it’s the whole thing.
Moe Carrick 15:56
And so I only call that out because I think it’s easy sometimes when we feel treated unfairly in a system to say somebody bad is doing this to me. And I don’t mean to imply that there aren’t toxic bosses, but I bet that in this case, Ann, that the boss is not toxic. The boss is surviving too.
Ann Lent 16:11
Moe Carrick 16:12
Just barely. And so that’s where we can find, I think, space for empathy to say, yeah, I get it. And I hope you can save yourself, too. And it’s not about rugged individualism, that look, I still want to provide care. But I can only do it on these three days. Because otherwise I’m useless. And so can I do it these three days? Will that work for us? You know what I mean? Like, whatever the story is that we that we have to tell, I think is important.
Unknown Speaker 16:36
Before you move on, Moe I just want to throw a little trivia at you with this. What were you doing 37 freaking years ago, tomorrow? Go.
Moe Carrick 16:50
Okay, wait, I have to look my calendar… 37 years ago tomorrow… what the heck was I doing?
Ann Lent 16:55
Standing on a highway in Maine…
Moe Carrick 16:58
Oh my god. I was I was sitting on that highway in Maine with a urinary tract infection, waiting to be picked up by my support for my job. And you pick me up!
Ann Lent 17:11
Unknown Speaker 17:13
What?! Tomorrow’s your friend-i-versary?!
Ann Lent 17:19
yep. July 9.
Moe Carrick 17:20
July 9, in the wilds of Maine. I was on outbound cores and what was it, like CDP three, two? And I had to leave because I was sick and Ann picked me up. I didn’t know who she was. And it was the most easy conversation. I was really embarrassed, because I think it was only female on staff.
Moe Carrick 17:36
And Ann was like, yeah, no problem. We got this, we’ll get you some medication and get you all fix up. And then we started talking. And then I was like, why aren’t you coming back into the field with me? And that was the beginning.
Moe Carrick 17:47
Oh my gosh, good trivia question. 37 years? Oh my gosh.
Moe Carrick 17:50
Well, magical thing. So gotta get to see you both today.
Ann Lent 17:54
Moe Carrick 17:55
Well, Oakley and Mei thank you. Thank you so so so much for joining us today. I love you both and treasure you.
Moe Carrick 18:04
I forgot to say before, even though you told me, Mei, that I was supposed to mention that if you have a question… We have some questions that have come from our social and our newsletter that are really, really good. And we want to ask for your questions, because you showed up with us today for the podcasts. And so we have one on there right now, which is maybe an easy one to answer. What went into deciding the name your podcast?
Mei Ratz 18:24
it was supposed to be Stop the Suck, except you can’t say “suck” on the internet and make it through the algorithm. So we couldn’t make that the name.
Moe Carrick 18:31
Mei Ratz 18:31
And Make Work Human already is a podcast. So Let’s Make Work Human had to be moved to the front of the line. And “suck” had to be turned into “s*ck”.
Moe Carrick 18:45
We actually did not know. For the developers of the Make Work Human podcast, we did Google that stuff. And we did not know that your podcast existed. So we want to have you on here. And we want to talk about your podcast too, because that matters. But we really didn’t think anybody had the name of Let’s Make Work Human. So we thought it was good. But you know, oh, well, but it was supposed to be Stop the Suck. And then we realized that was an algorithm problem. So, you know, we just really wanted to name the podcast, what we focus on every day, which is how can we make work good for people? And, and that’s the name that that stuck. Alright, so keep your questions coming. And in the meantime, Mei you’re driving on the questions from our other audiences that you want to tackle.
Unknown Speaker 19:25
Okay, here’s the one. Moe, you get to go first on this one. This one is a newly self employed individual, and they want to know how to be a good boss to themselves, and how to be a good employee to themselves.
Moe Carrick 19:38
Well, I’m gonna tell you what I tell you privately. Because I think that oh, yes, but it’s an envelope. So what I said privately when we heard about this question was I actually think that for the new entrepreneur, there’s a paradox between being a good employee to yourself and a good employer and to be a good employee for yourself and also trying to get the traction you need to be successful.
Moe Carrick 20:07
And so while my heart-centered self wants to be like, be kind yourself, be compassionate, you’re gonna make a lot of mistakes. And this is, you know, being a new entrepreneur requires a lot of courage. So I’ll have empathy and self talk is super important for yourself, treat yourself as, as you would like others to treat you.
Moe Carrick 20:28
And, I also know, having been an entrepreneur, that it’s hard, like, it’s stressful, there’s long nights. And so I think there’s a piece of being an entrepreneur that you’ve got to pull from the bottom, because the reality is any of us to go off on our on our own, we had to make the money to do the thing–because we live in a capitalist society. So you’ve got to also be able to figure out what is it that I want to sell? How can I sell it enough so that I can get a little bit of traction under my feet. And I’m not saying like, throw it all to the wind and work 24/7 and kill yourself. That’s not what I’m saying.
Moe Carrick 21:02
But I am saying be realistic with yourself. That there’s some grunt and some grit. For me, it’s like summiting, a high alpine peak. Like you don’t get to the top by like waltzing through the fores. over many, many days, you have to like hump it, you know.
Moe Carrick 21:17
And so I think there’s a, there’s a paradox to new entrepreneurship, which is treat yourself with kindness, kindly, do rigorous self care, rigorous self care, because–same thing that we answer Ann’s questions with makes sense–you know, I can’t help I can’t work if I’m not well. But also know that you’re going to have to pull from some grit, because it’s hard to be on your own, especially when you first start. So what do you think of that?
Mei Ratz 21:45
You can stay on the podcast.
Moe Carrick 21:47
Are you gonna kick me out? You don’t want to work with me anymore now.
Unknown Speaker 21:50
She said she would lie. That’s what she said she was gonna do and she just didn’t lie. Just now.
Moe Carrick 21:55
I can’t I can’t lie. I’m not a good liar. Mei, you know that.
Mei Ratz 21:58
But what about being a good employee to yourself? Well, you know, four day workweek, do you give yourself days off?
Moe Carrick 22:04
Yeah, I mean, I think to me, that’s maybe being a good People Leader to yourself.
Moe Carrick 22:09
I think, you know, being a, I think being an employee to yourself is probably things like, tell yourself the truth. You know, being a good employee toyourself, I think also means, you know, know what good looks like, and stay clear on that.
Moe Carrick 22:25
But being a good employer to yourself, yeah, decide what are the work hours you want be, be human, you know, be people centered in how you design your business, so that it makes sense. And I guess that maybe that’s the genesis of where the question comes from.
Moe Carrick 22:38
Because I think a lot of times when we are entrepreneurs, we forget that we have to factor in all the real costs. Like if I’m, if I’m a noob in a new business, and I figure I can make you know, $200 a day doing this one thing, and then I forget that it’s going to cost me $210 to do that thing. Well, that’s not a business model that’s going to work.
Moe Carrick 22:58
Because I’m shelling out $10 a day to keep that business going. So being a employer to yourself also means like setting a business model that will work so that you can charge enough to cover things like time off, health insurance benefits, a place to work where you can thinkm some of those kinds of things. So does that makes sense?
Unknown Speaker 23:22
Mei Ratz 23:23
Okay, we’ve got one from Nikki over here.
Mei Ratz 23:26
Do you believe that everyone has a purpose and passion–purpose slash passio–and should find it and pursue it or that passion is created through practice and becoming better at what you do creates that passion?
Moe Carrick 23:38
All right, you get to take take that one first. YouPre creative. Oeople may not know this about you, but you are a passionate creative excellent photographer.
Unknown Speaker 23:46
I I got sold some Kool Aid. And I’m just gonna tell you, it was expensive Kool Aid. I am still paying off that art school bill. And it was expensive Kool Aid alright, but I had to have a passion I needed to have a purpose. And the reason I needed to have a passion and a purpose was because we have to save the world… yesterday… and if we don’t save the world yesterday we’re letting our mothers down because they worked so hard to get here.
Mei Ratz 24:16
That’s the Kool Aid I was sold that might be a different flavor than you were sold. different flavor.
Mei Ratz 24:20
But that has then driven me to be like, “if everything is not purpose driven and Passion Driven, what am I doing?” Why am I wasting my one wild and precious life when in reality we all know that that was just her laying in a field.
Mei Ratz 24:34
But took that to mean that we have to sprint very hard. And you just heard me, like, that’s part o my life course. Right? Like I’m a Sagittarius, y’all, I’m like headed for the thing. But I think if all of our decisions are based around a lack of. Like, I don’t have a passion but I need to have one, wow. We’ve like started out the gate by shaming ourself, that way, you know.
Mei Ratz 24:59
And I was a creative, I am a creative, I was an artist, I was a jock. I was like, I’m a swimmer, I’m so many things. And if I would have just sat in those passions, I would never have found Moe. I wouldn’t be on this podcast, I wouldn’t be able to talk about the things I’m talking about right now. I wouldn’t know the things I have right now. I wouldn’t be passionate about the things that I am right now.
Mei Ratz 25:20
So I think about that often around like, what is my actual passion now? It’s nothing that I could have seen five years ago. So I don’t know that I would sell that Kool Aid back. You know, I wouldn’t… I think it comes, I think it comes and I think it has to be let to come.
Mei Ratz 25:35
I think you gotta, instead of gripping, this gripping feeling of… you have to hold your breath to grip, right instead of holding, which requires you to breathe steadily. And that if you can hold on to whatever it is that you feel passionate about, right this minute. Instead of gripping so tightly onto this is supposed to my passion or I’m supposed to find one, that you might find the one that feels most true in that moment.
Mei Ratz 25:59
I am so thankful, for example, for the like health care providers that found a passion in medicine. You know, I think there are people that do have the thing and they drive for it. And it is true. And like study for them. Always. You know, Oakley is a good example of this too. She knew. So, I think it’s an “and-both” but for me, I wouldn’t sell the Kool Aid of that you have to have a passion that you go for it.
Moe Carrick 26:21
Yeah, I love that answer. I think it’s really powerful to think about. And I do think that generationally, we do probably see this a little bit differently. I’ve seen in my own kids like the tension–and they’re probably more like Generation Z probably then millennial–but the pressure about finding your passion. And I think I understand where it came from, it’s probably baby boomers like me that caused it, you know? Because…
Mei Ratz 26:49
Is that an I’m sorry? Is that what you’re saying?
Moe Carrick 26:51
I’m sorry, on behalf of all baby boomers, I am sorry. But I think you know, we we were not taught necessarily–I was not taught to pursue my passion, I was taught to get a freakin job so that I could support myself.
Moe Carrick 27:07
And, you know, when I did that, and this, I think is where there’s like a lot of synchronicity between what you’re seeing what I’m seing, I had to look at like door number one, door number two, door number three. And then I didn’t know what was behind them until I got there. And then I was like, oh my gosh, there’s a whole profession. There’s a whole there’s people who do this thing. You know, I was enrolled in graduate school in social work. And I actually was invited to join my friend, Ann, for a day at graduate school with her in organizational development and I was like, what? What is that?
Moe Carrick 27:41
And I went to school with her and I was like, Oh, my God, this is so much better than social work for me right now, like, this is going to be great. But I never would have known that if I hadn’t, like gotten into working with some groups on leadership and you know, getting, like, evolving.
Moe Carrick 27:55
And so I guess, for me, I am with you, Mei. I don’t think that emphasizing the passion career is good. If that’s I say to people, I think it’s actually kind of a lie. Because also it makes our work and our lives equally have to be the end all be all passion. And come on, like we can’t be amped up that high all the time.
Moe Carrick 28:15
Like we got to have a little bit of chill in our lives. And work is, after all, work. And in our capitalist society, we work for money. And so it’s possible–like, if I pursued my passion completely, I’ve written a blog about this, right? But I’d be like an elephant-Wrangler, bee-keeping, bread-making novel-reading coffee-drinker. So that would be that would be my job.
Mei Ratz 28:40
That would be delightful.
Moe Carrick 28:41
It would be delightful, but it would make this much money. Right. And so it’s not realistic for me to pursue those passions, because I can’t can’t actually, you know, make a living in those passions.
Moe Carrick 28:55
And also, I want to have some separation between my work and my life.
Moe Carrick 29:00
You know, and you know, Mei, like, one of my passions is horses, it always has been, but I’m glad I don’t work in the horse industry. You know, raising horses, training horses selling horse, I just like love rubbing up on horses and riding my dinky horse.
Moe Carrick 29:14
You know, like, that’s just super fun for me to do. But I don’t want anything to do with that profession for myself. So I think that we don’t do our children and our colleagues a good service when we say like, pursue your passion, I think rather, and, the question was asked really nicely this way, do we support having a purpose?
Moe Carrick 29:34
Like being able to connect to, “Why might this job or this work feed me or be interesting to me?”
Moe Carrick 29:40
Because I do think we need to know why our work matters. Whether we’re scooping ice cream, or saving the world through climate change. I think we need to feel like what we do matters. But that to me is really different than, like, pursuing our passion. And if they happen to be the same, that’s cool. You know, for us.
Moe Carrick 30:00
But I think we can have both we can have life passions, and we can have work that feeds us in terms of purpose, and not have to be the same. And I see you, Mei, as a creative like living that. Your creativity feeds our business in so many ways. We’re so lucky to have your talents, your passion of creativity, and you also your photography, it just delights the world outside of work, like you take pictures all the time of everything and they’re works of art. And that’s a passion that doesn’t, it doesn’t detract from the work you do with our firm. But it’s different. And it’s in you, it’s in you not something just that you do.
Mei Ratz 30:35
It’s in you, not just something that you do.
Mei Ratz 30:39
I love that Kailyn has put a great piece in the in the chat about maybe we have made the idea of purpose and passion too narrow. And I think that’s so true. Right now, since I have a two and a half year old. You know, I like always trying to think about the words that I’m saying to her. Because, one, she says them back to me, which is horrifying. So I’m like trying really hard to say things I want to hear back or make sure you know, I’m trying to be a good parent, ya’ll.
Mei Ratz 31:08
But anyways, so I don’t want her to see people who aren’t just sky high all the time. And then worn to the bone, I don’t want her to think that’s what success looks like. I want her to get out in the world and be peer pressured into rest. You know, I want her to be like, Oh, look, all these people are passionate about their lives, about living with the people that they love, about, you know, loving the people that they love, about spending time with their horses and loving on them and then doing also good work. And whatever that means for them.
Mei Ratz 31:43
I want her to see that, you know, I don’t want her to see like, okay, if I’m not here, high octane, at all times, loving this, than I am not good enough. You know, I don’t! No. I don’t want that.
Mei Ratz 31:54
What you also are saying about like not having a purpose and not having a passion or whatever, you know, all the things is actually very, it makes me nervous for my for this to go out to my millennial friends. Because I think we’ve heard that so many times, like, this is my passion. This is my purpose. We got to have this thing, we got to drive that direction. Yeah, just remember that there’s a person named Moe Carrick who also says that there’s a difference between happy and thriving. If you’re in a job, that is your passion, that is your purpose, and you feel unhappy, but you’re still thriving, there still might be something there, right? Like, there’s… so anyways. Okay.
Moe Carrick 32:27
I’m with you. And in fact, Steve just put something great in the chat. Thank you so much, Steve, another longtime colleague and friend, I’m so happy and honored to have you here.
Moe Carrick 32:34
And so, you know, Steve’s talking about bringing in and applying your passion to wherever you work or career you choose, and I love that, you know, we can apply it in a variety of ways.
Moe Carrick 32:42
And I think the other piece that comes up for me, Mei, and I believe I love what you’re saying about Crosley and being the mom that you want to be is that… I think we do a disservice to people when we make jobs only be about passion. Like recently I was, yesterday, actually–speaking of my passion–I took the morning off because I had to take the horse to the vet, and–I love my vet. He’s great. And he treated Cal for what was going on–But then I had another appointment, which is that he had to go to the dentist. And… a horse dentist is like, hilarious.
Moe Carrick 33:16
I mean, the drill is like this long. And she basically anesthetizes the horse and jams this tool in her mouth, in his mouth and drills. It’s brutal, and it’s hard work. And I was thinking, watching Kelsey, the amazing equine dentist do this. And I was thinking I bet this is not her passion. Right? This is dirty, hard work. She’s like underneath my drooling horse who’s almost falling over and she’s filing his teeth, you know, but what I asked her like why do you do this?
Moe Carrick 33:49
She says, I love it so much. I’m so interested in horse equine health, and people don’t think about the teeth mattering and I like to ride for fun. And so it’s like clearly she has a purpose driven connection to this job. But I’m quite confident that it’s not her passion and you think about things like stocking the grocery store shelves or turning up a car or we have some people here doing some work in our garden hard work hard physical work. You know, they’re their passion is probably riding on a wakeboard on Saturday out at the lake, you know, but they have a purpose that brings them to connect to this work. So we don’t want to denigrate jobs by making them always have to be beloved. .
Mei Ratz 34:25
Totally. All right, keep breathing.
Moe Carrick 34:28
Mei Ratz 34:29
You’re up for this one. Negotiations are tough. I grew up as a people pleaser. How do I get better at this? And then there’s a second one in there that’s also about negotiations, how to negotiate a higher salary when people are coming in at a higher pay. Merge those, as you will. If you listen to our money episode, y’all, you’ll know that I don’t know anything about negotiating. I tried to get this job for no money. So Moe is the expert on this one.
Moe Carrick 34:55
We’re gonna have another podcast based on that episode that is called, Mei, goes school to negotiate.
Moe Carrick 35:00
Because she almost negotiated during our podcast, which was not something that I wanted her to do, actually. But you know, it’s a real thing right now, man. I mean, I know you know, this, a lot of people are, a lot of employers are having to hire new talent coming in much higher than the talent that already works there just to get people to agree to work because you know, we’ve wised up during COVID, we’re like, Heck, no, I’m not gonna do that job for $4 an hour, you know, and so employers are having to right level, what they’re really paying, and then that leaves the people that already have those jobs, you know, really hanging. And, I mean, it’s shown up in a lot of places.
Moe Carrick 35:39
One of the really hard spots right now is with regard to traveling nurses, in acute care hospitals who are being paid really high, and the nurses that are already working there are not and so there’s like, lots of issues here.
Moe Carrick 35:51
But I think that the negotiation question–I’m super curious, of course, we can’t know. Because the questions, I think we’re anonymous–but if it’s a man or a woman asking about negotiation, because one of the things or someone who identifies as non binary, but one of the things me and I talked about in the money podcast is that there’s a lot of generalization to how we are trained to negotiate.
Moe Carrick 36:13
And living in the binary for a while my true lived experience is that women suck at it. We are not trained to negotiate for a salary, but men are trained to pause, to reflect. I don’t know and I nor have I seen research yet around what about those that identify as something other than male or female, whether they are feeling the inculturation around negotiation.
Moe Carrick 36:40
But I think that the critical ingredient for me around negotiation is courage. And by courage, I mean, a willingness to be vulnerable, because the big risk with negotiation is that we will get a no. And what I heard you say, Mei, in our podcasts about money was like, Wow, if I said to you, I’d actually like this amount of money. If you said no, then I’d be at net zero. And what I said to you was like, No, you would not have been at net zero, because I still wanted to hire you. So we would have just been at a different number.
Moe Carrick 37:08
Moe Carrick 37:08
And I think that we have to work on our mindset to be more courageous to say, yeah, it’s going to feel like uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure when I try to negotiate, because I may not get what I want. Right? And the answer is, yeah, that’s true. You may not but you might get something better than what you actually were initially offered. And if you don’t, then you can always say like, Okay, you can’t pay me that. But I’ll I’d like to take the job at what you originally offered it to me for, you know, if you if that’s okay with you.
Mei Ratz 37:34
Oh, hot tip. Y’all, you get to go back.
Moe Carrick 37:37
Mei Ratz 37:37
You get to say I’ll take back… I’ll take the other one. I like today’s years old on this font, just so we all know, like, I didn’t know so many things about this. I didn’t know you can negotiate for things that weren’t money, till like six minutes ago. But you can!
Mei Ratz 37:54
Listen to me all you negotiators out there.
Moe Carrick 37:56
Mei Ratz 37:57
Time off! I didn’t know that. That’s so great. Vacation. I didn’t know that! Four day work week. Didn’t know tha. Got one this year, y’all. It’s the best ever, please give them to everyone that can you can give them two or many things, right? Health insurance, just like in general staying at home so that you can work remotely. So many things! I didn’t even know you could do that.
Moe Carrick 38:21
I love the way you’re saying that and that awareness. And like I think for in negotiation, we have to become a little bit more neutral. Like this is about an ask this is about what I think I need, and can you meet that, you know, and we have to, you know, we have to have some boundaries on what we will tolerate or not. But I think it’s important to be able to be brave. And it’s also important to be able to be flexible.
Moe Carrick 38:43
And oftentimes, what I see happens in negotiation with people that are in a job situation is that they, they just don’t know how to say the hard thing. And it gets all tangled up like this in our worthiness.
Moe Carrick 38:58
So let’s say, Mei, I work for you, and you’re paying me $10 a day. I think, yes, and I and I think I deserve 15. If I say, Mei, I think and I’ve looked I’ve done some research and like actually, I think people like me get paid $15 a day, and, Mei, you’re paying me 10.
Moe Carrick 39:12
And I’d like to negotiate for more like and then you say, no, Moe I’m sorry, we’re running at a deficit. And we’re a nonprofit, and actually I can’t pay you. I can’t pay you 15, I could do this though. I could pay you $12.50. And then if we get this grant, we could bump it up to 16. Would that work?
Moe Carrick 39:30
Then I’m like, Hell yeah, that would work. Okay, but what I have to do is separate my self esteem from that conversation so that my identity isn’t completely connected to what it is that I win in the negotiation. Because if you say to me, no, Moe, I can’t do that. You’re speaking on behalf of the entity, that organism that has to survive, you’re not speaking on behalf on you are not worthy. You’re not saying no mo I can’t pay you that much because you are not worthy, and you’re inadequate and insufficient and incompetent. That’s not what you’re saying. No employer says that.
Mei Ratz 40:02
No. Well, most, yeah. None that have gone through The LPP. I got a couple of questions follow up.
Moe Carrick 40:10
Mei Ratz 40:11
I know, does negotiation… Do you start at the top number? If you’re going to negotiate. If someone goes, Hey, I would you work for this much? And I say, Yeah, but I’d like to go for many more. Do I go for the many more dollars? Or do I go for the middle number?
Moe Carrick 40:27
Yeah, I think you have to be somewhat, I think I would recommend in negotiating some research, right? I mean,
Mei Ratz 40:38
But even in that there’s there’s an upper end.
Moe Carrick 40:41
There is an upper end. And so I guess that that does connect with like, what do I know about myself to be true that merits that you know, that request? And like, Yeah, I think that I have because I have to recognize, and Jim just pointed this out–who by the way, everybody, is my husband–our partners are on this call, too, which is also freaky, I don’t know about you, my palms are sweating–
Moe Carrick 41:04
But I think that, you know, Jim’s talking about profitability. And I think as an as an employee, if I’m trying to negotiate salary, I have to remember that my boss or my employer is up against some other constraints. It could be profitability, if they’re a for profit company, it could be just operational capacity, if they’re a nonprofit, or a government agency. In other words, the real world has constraints.
Moe Carrick 41:25
So if I apply for an entry level job at a nonprofit that I really believe in, and I really, really want to bring my skills to this cause and I go in saying, I need $250,000 a year to in order to feel good about this job, and they’re like, that’s our entire budget for the next two years. Then I’m gonna have to be like, Oops, I made, I made a little mismatch here.
Moe Carrick 41:47
I want to do my research, what what do I think is fair and reasonable pay for this job that I’m interested in? And what do I think this organization can spend it? Can I live with that? Right? And if the answer is no, then that’s probably not going to be good place for me to work. Right? If the answer is yes, then I can go into the top of that number, like for what I think is the biggest amount that will satisfy me, and knowing that I may have some room to come down. But I think we do need to do our research. And I think we have to recognize that the people that lead organizations are up against constraints that we the employee may not understand. Does that make sense?
Mei Ratz 42:23
Yeah, it does.
Mei Ratz 42:24
Here’s something that feels true for me just now. Is that if I… I feel like if I would have asked you… say I came in, and I negotiated my pay with you. What I really fear and what I feared in that moment, which I’m just now realizing, is that you would see me as greedy. Is that, like the thing that then would follow me forever, like a terrible tale is that I’m greedy that all I want is money. And that like I’m here just to take you for everything you’re worth.
Moe Carrick 42:55
Oh, my God.
Mei Ratz 42:56
I know. And I offered you $0 because I like you!
Moe Carrick 43:01
I just want to tell you how many heads nodded on the screen right now, half of our audience was like, don’t want to be greedy.
Moe Carrick 43:10
So this is what I have to say about that: What is this message about being greedy? Where does this come from? And I do think again, that there’s some inculturation here. And for me, and I can relate, right? I worked early in my career, I worked for nonprofits right up until I started my own business 21 years ago. And when I did, my business started with nonprofit rates. And I’ll tell you what happened.
Moe Carrick 43:33
I went to corporate clients to pitch work, and they laughed me out of the room. They were like, HA HA, you’re only gonna charge that much money, you must suck, right? Because it was a ridiculously low amount for what the sector will tolerate. And they wanted a good competent consultant. And they didn’t know me. And so they wanted my rates to be like, within reason of what people like me are getting paid for. And what I had to come to terms with, Mei, which I hear you wrestling with is like, no, that’s not greedy. That’s called responsible to for yourself. You got to be responsible for yourself.
Moe Carrick 44:09
And I don’t think men do worry about being greedy. And here’s the thing, this is why I love what you said so much, is that women are not taught that we can be ambitious. And if women talk about money, we’re seen as a lot of bad things.
Moe Carrick 44:23
And if men talk about money, they’re seen, they’re seen as a lot of good things. And I know I’m being binary here. But this there are historical legacy has a more binary feel to it. And one of the things that I am done with is playing small and masking my own ambition, which includes making bank.
Mei Ratz 44:45
Moe Carrick 44:46
Right? I don’t want to just make bank so that I can do… I’m not carrying around Chanel bags, I want to make bank so that I can provide for the people I love so that I can build some generational wealth with my children and so that I can give a shit ton of that money away which I do.
Moe Carrick 45:00
Also what’s wrong with a Chanel bag? Nothing.
Moe Carrick 45:04
No, that’s true. That would be perfect
Mei Ratz 45:07
A woman with money is okay. Maternal wealth is great. It’s existed for a long time.
Moe Carrick 45:12
Absolutely. And so I think, Mei, the greediness is up against the ambition, which is actually for you to think that you’re being greedy, actually, when really what you were doing was trying to secure a fair wage a good wage that would help you and your family live in the community and contribute to the community in ways that you really want. And that is really reasonable. And your ambition if you want if you have more ambition, because you want to be able to fund you know, Sam to go to medical school, on your own.
Moe Carrick 45:39
Hi, Sam, he’s here.
Moe Carrick 45:40
No problem, good job. I support, because that’s something you want to do, because it matters to you. And so I think we’ve got to get away this greedy attribution that comes with negotiating for for pay.
Mei Ratz 45:56
I just would like to direct your attention to Hannah in the chat, who says that her greedy mindset is attached to not having worked hard enough for it. That can be a whole podcast of itself. I’m gonna save that for later. Because I hear you, Hannah. And I think that hustle mindset, for sure, it’s a thing.
Moe Carrick 46:13
And also, look around, there’s a lot of people who have made a lot of money, who are not that smart, or even mission driven around purpose. Like we can if we’re gonna equate character to negative things like greed. And we got to look at some of those instances, say like, there’s actually not a connection here, folks, to character and whether you’re rich or not, yeah, okay. There’s not a connection. There’s a lot of people that are plenty rich that are not of really awesome character.
Moe Carrick 46:46
So if you know what you value, and you have ambition to change the world, and you need some money to do it, which we all do, by the way, because in a capitalist society, money does give us more power to enact the change that we want, then let’s do it. Let’s make bank so that we can change the world. And it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t march, because we should march two, yes. Oh my gosh. So Caitlin asked about the intersection of pleasure, passion, excitement, and how much we get paid. Fear about asking money for worth, I love… I just feel you and then Nikki’s asking about you know, I didn’t work hard enough to sit and do nothing. I need to always be working on something.
Moe Carrick 47:22
No, you don’t,
Mei Ratz 47:23
Moe Carrick 47:27
We are here to tell you…
Mei Ratz 47:28
You don’t have to earn rest. Don’t do it.
Moe Carrick 47:31
Right. But I want to validate Nikki and and Kathy and anyone else who’s feeling this. We are born in a culture that says that our worth is connected to our hustle and grind.
Moe Carrick 47:44
And that, actually, the heroic models of the meritocracy that is our North American business in which we’re culture says that benefits come to those who suffer and who go it alone. And we are trying really hard with this little podcast and with our little firm to change that mythology because the evidence actually tells us that it doesn’t work.
Moe Carrick 48:07
That the hero’s journey of rugged individualism that hustling until we burn out, actually costs us as a society. There’s so much research about this. Checkout Jeffrey Pfeffer’s Dying for a Paycheck. And we know that when we rest, when we have pleasure in our life, we are capable of more. More hardwork, more effort, more excellence, more money, more purpose driven achievement, because we’re, we’re up for it. You know, but I know that feeling of hustle. I mean, I my family teases me, I don’t know, Mei, If this goes on your house–my family teases me because I don’t sit down very well, at all. Like, I’m just always doing something is part of how I’m wired. I’d like you were like meteors. We move fast through the world. But I have to consciously say to myself, and for me, like there are certain ways that I can give myself permission to really rest such as sitting and reading a good book, you know, or, since COVID binge watching Netflix. But I think that you know, I have to do a little number on myself to force myself to rest and some of you may feel that ,too. And it’s dismantling the patriarchy in my head.
Mei Ratz 49:16
Yeah, yeah. So good. Like who’s making money by you shaming yourself into working? That’s what I ask myself all the time. Like, especially around I don’t know, I can do around working out who’s making money off of me thinking my body doesn’t look the way that I think it should look. Not me. I’m not making any money off that thought. Yeah, I, Nikki, I hear you too. It’s hard for me. I’m still working that, I’m still ironing that one out.
Moe Carrick 49:43
Well, and can I use one example?
Moe Carrick 49:44
I know we need to wrap, but I want to offer one little example for people that are listening about this question. That is a good one, I think, Mei and has to do with you and me.
Mei Ratz 49:50
Moe Carrick 49:51
So we we announced in New Year, this year, in 2022 that we wanted to offer a four day workweek to people that wanted to take advantage of it and Mei raised her hand that she did. And it’s worked out really well, for the most part, except, I will point out that today is Friday, and here you are working with me on the podcast.
Moe Carrick 50:06
And that has happened, you know, fairly often, where I do need you to do something on Fridays the business demands it, I demand it, and you are flexible and do it. And what I think what I think that points out is that it’s all about an “and-both”. Like, Mei, you have a boundary, you’ve claimed you want to do a four day week, and it does work for us, generally, and sometimes it doesn’t. And so me as the employer, being able to be flexible, you as the employee being able to be flexible, but not getting sucked into the mentality that that is the only measure of your worth. You know, as your boss, I’m not saying well, may you know, you couldn’t work on Friday. So that makes you lazy, like I’m not shaming you about that. But I am also clear when I need you to flex. So it’s an and-both.
Mei Ratz 50:53
Mei Ratz 50:55
Let’s thank our people. And let’s go rest. I will, because it’s Friday. Thank you all for coming. Thank you for helping us launch our podcast. Please, please, please. Stick around. Stick around. We love having you in community. We didn’t get to all the questions, so we’ll click and clack and Dear Sugar our way through these questions on other episodes, so don’t even worry.
Moe Carrick 51:20
You’ve given us like four weeks worth of good questions. And by the way, congratulations, Kersey, on the new job. That is so exciting.
Mei Ratz 51:32
Mei Ratz 51:32
There’s like three people on here that I’ve coached in the last year, who I have said the thing of like, you need to rest, like you get to do the thing you want to do. And also it exists open your umbrella wider, you can do this. That’s so great to see you. I’m so proud of you. So proud of you.
Moe Carrick 51:48
Awesome! Awesome. What goes around comes around. I wanted to say one more, thank you before we close and that it’s to you, Mei.
Mei Ratz 51:53
Moe Carrick 51:54
And that is because this podcast getting off the ground would not have happened without your fierce energy and partnership with Jordan. And so thank you, thank you, thank you, the day you joined this team was a day I will not ever forget, it’s been worth every single hard moment that we’ve had. So thank you for being part of this ship and in fostering this incredible dynamic. So thank you all for joining us so much. And um, thanks for your help launching this podcast.
Mei Ratz 52:20
I love it! By, ya’ll. Thank you.
Moe Carrick 52:26
Hey, if you’re listening to Let’s Make Work Human right now and you’re a small to medium sized business who’s really struggling with creating a culture that’s good for people so that you can attract and keep the people you need to run your business, make a profit and meet your mission you might be really interested in my new micro course that’s launching in mid August. In the show notes and on our webpage, you can find information about that course. It’s a $99 spend, and it’s going to be an awesome three part series to give you the tools you need right now in this tough employment market. I hope to see you there.